From: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com (rawlife-digest) To: rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Subject: rawlife-digest V1 #950 Reply-To: rawlife@rawtimes.com Sender: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Errors-To: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Precedence: bulk rawlife-digest Friday, April 5 2002 Volume 01 : Number 950 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:09:59 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] And the award goes to... Jo Yoshida wrote: > Dr. Herbert Shelton ... Why should I then give > credence to his expertise?? Jo, rather than following dogma of any kind from anyone, imo best way to go is personal inquiry, experimentation and having an acute sense of unbiased observation. Ultimately what matters is NOT what others say and do, but what we personally know to be the truth. Unfortunately truth is often not always readily discernible, hence many of the world's woes, yet if we're determined to know the 'truth' we'll find it. So, as for Herbert Shelton's teachings, perhaps give him credence where it's deserved and forgive him for any unwitting mistakes. When all's said and done, IMO he has aimed straight for the bullseye, ie most of what he says is spot on. As for any imperfections and untruths, I don't take those on board, I am my own master and tread my own path and receive help and goodness when it's offered and leave the rest by the wayside. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 02:13:00 -0500 From: Bob Avery Subject: Re: [rawlife] Chet Day Jay, >Oh come on! Beef flank, sour cream, shredded >cheddar cheese, tortillas? Cooked on low for 8-10 >hours. Hello. Nothing about that is predominantly >plant-based and uncooked. That's not the worst of it. He gives recipes for cakes and cookies. I used to subscribe to his health newsletter, and I could see the continued deterioration in his recommendations first-hand. In one of his newsletters, he said something like, "I don't know about you, but when holidays roll around, my thoughts turn to cookies." I couldn't resist replying to him in private that when holidays roll around, my thoughts turn toward persimmons (or something like that). He took offense at that comment and unsubscribed me from his newsletter. That was maybe 2 years ago, and I haven't been following him since. Maybe some people can stick with a mostly raw and a little cooked in the diet, but it seems that for many if you give cooked an inch it will take a mile eventually. >I also have to point out the "Cookie Recipe >of the Week." ??? Oh, I see you found the cookies. So now it's not just holidays, but weekly? Oh, dear. >So why is that a few contemporary > health gurus preach that goat's milk is fine for > babies, but not fine for anyone else? Because adults aren't babies? And even "fine" for babies might be stretching it a little. >I have read Dr. Walker extensively >and he definitely said breast milk is best. Good, but not for adults, right? Jo, >And Dr. Herbert Shelton suffered from Parkinson's disease from 1964 >till his death in 1989. This one is a mixed bag for me because I >deeply respect his knowledge and experience and yet I also have to >consider that his last 25 years were spent in a chronic degenerative >state, the last several years, bedridden. Why should I then give >credence to his expertise?? Not everyone walks his talk. That's doesn't make the talk useless a priori. >So when he was resting in bed during >the last years of his life, when he undertook two lengthy fasts >during that period, why didn't he recover? It is my understanding that he was not idle during those fasts but continued to work, and neurological problems seem to be a lot more stubborn and time-consuming to heal than most other types. They also take decades to develop (unless due to sudden injury). It used to be thought until quite recently that brain cells did not regenerate at all no matter what you did. You simply lost more and more of them as time went by. Now it appears that they do regenerate, but the time scale is on the order of 7 years for average cell turnover. Presumably that could be speeded up considerably by fasting, but expecting total recovery in 2 30-day fasts is a bit much. Furthermore, natural hygiene teaches that in order for the body to heal, one must remove causes. It appears that he did not fast with the intention of removing causes (stress, overwork, sleep deficit) since he worked right through his fasts, or so I hear. Someone one asked him whether his condition in later years had caused him to doubt the Laws of Life. He said, "No, I'm an illustration of them!" He knew what he was doing to himself but consciously sacrificed his own health for what he considered something of greater value -- spreading the word to others. Do you only do those things that promote your best health at all times? Does anybody? >Sorry, got carried away. Me too, I guess, but it bothers me to see this great mean so often criticized unfairly. I'd like to see any of his critics put out a monthly newsletter for 30-40 years while writing 40 books, running a fasting institution, and traveling around the country giving health lectures on the side -- all the time while being hounded by the medical and political authorities for nuisance charges of "practicing medicine without a license." I don't care what kind of diet you're eating, Jo. Could you do all that without turning into some kind of basket case? >I agree wholeheartedly that intellectual and ethical integrity >shouldn't take a back seat to adhering to the party line. Yes, I agree also. Bob Avery - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 03:24:07 EST From: DRBERNARR@aol.com Subject: [rawlife] Harvey Diamond, co-author of "Fit For Life" is incorrect re: lymph is a panacea Jo Yoshida wrote re: Harvey Diamond, the co-author of the best selling "Fit For Life". Harvey Diamond wrote "The Magical Missing Link to Power Healing-Your Lymph System". Unfortunately Harvey is incorrect, re: lymph. There is no clinical evidence nor scientific evidence to corroborate Harvey's contention re: lymph being "The Magical Missing Link to Power Healing". What is lymph? Lymph is formed from tissue fluid by the physical process of diffusion. Lymph carries products of metabolism from tissues to blood. Harvey wrote "that I limp noticeably, and have limited use of my arms and hands." Harvey wrote that he is ill because, in 1966, during the Vietnam War, while he served "in the U.S. Armed Services, I was sent to Vietnam where I was exposed to Agent Orange, a derivative of Dioxin, considered to be the most deadly man-made toxin ever concocted. It causes, and I have, a a condition called Peripheral Neuropathy, which destroys the muscles of the body, starting with the arms and legs." Jo wrote re: Harvey "But I'm wondering if his long-term raw veganism might have had some effect on neurological function (like Herbert Shelton) and therefore his muscles have atrophied as a result of disuse. Maybe that might have convinced him to start consuming RAF." Harvey has never been a raw food vegan. Harvey has never water fasted. I know Harvey personally for over 25 years. Based on Harvey's past usual cooked food nutritional lifestyle, I doubt that now that Harvey is eating animal foods, that he is eating raw animal foods or anything similar, raw. I doubt that his alleged Peripheral Neuropathy, is a result of his contact with Agent Orange during the Vietnam War. Dr. Herbert M. Shelton may have been the most prolific writer on water fasting, but unfortunately did not understand how to properly water fast. Shelton suffered for over 25 years with Parkinson's Disease, which progressively crippled him and killed him. He water fasted several times during his Parkinson's Disease but could not arrest nor reverse his Parkinsonian symptoms. WHY WE BECOME ILL All illness is caused by wrong physical lifestyle, i.e., incorrect eating, incorrect living habits, wrong mentality, i.e., incorrect thinking and wrong spirituality, incorrect beliefs. None of us in "civilization" are "intelligent" and therefore none of us have correct living, correct thinking and correct spirituality. Perfect health is not found anywhere among mankind in "civilization". All of us in "civilization", sooner or later, become ill, acutely and chronically. Our subsequent well-being or possible crippling and/or death, depends on what we choose to do, when we become ill. ALL ILLNESS WILL SELF-HEAL, IF NOT SUPPRESSED All pain, symptoms, dysfunction, illness and disease, are self-limited, i.e., will heal by themselves, if we do not suppress our health problems, whether they be physical, mental and/or spiritual. All health problems when we first develop them are acute, and will self-heal within seconds, minutes, hours or days. If we suppress our acute health problems, i.e., interfere with its self-healing, we develop a chronic health problem, which may exist for weeks, months, years or a lifetime. If we don't permit our chronic health problem to self-heal, it will exacerbate and eventually kill us. That is why all human beings prematurely die. All human beings, if and when they die, should die only from so-called natural causes, at a very advanced age or from very severe trauma. EVERY PATHOLOGY PRODUCES A CONCOMITANT SYMPTOMATOLOGY I discovered that every pathology and physiological dysfunction produces a concomitant symptomatology in all human beings. Nobody else, other than I, has ever had previously the insight to write about this inherent self-healing mechanism. This means, that your inherent intelligence, your God within, is always talking to you. If you listen to it and obey it, you will always have good health. So whenever you are ill, your inherent intelligence produces symptoms upon which you should concentrate, meditate on, pay attention to and feel, until you are asymptomatic, i.e., until your symptoms completely and permanently disappear. If and when you will do this, your illness and the cause of your illness, will always help heal completely and permanently. HOW TO ALWAYS GET WELL If you are sick, to get well, close your eyes and keep them closed, 24/7, i.e., every moment you can! Closing the eyes, rests the brain and mind. An electric rhythm starts as soon as the eyes are closed and ceases immediately when they are opened. This rhythm serves-to clear "negative charges" from the brain. Activity of the eyes prevents recuperation from occurring. When your eyes are closed and you are at complete rest, bodily energies rejuvenate, cells replenish, tissues repair and organs refresh themselves and are made ready for renewed activity. When you are sick, you are greatly devitalized and enervated (exhausted) from over activity, excesses, stimulation and emotional excitement. Close your eyes and keep them closed, for completely resting every part of your body. Animals and babies instinctively know they must close their eyes to feel better. The most common, difficult to manage diseases, are often related to a sleep deficiency. If you are sick or tired, you have a sleep deficiency. Healing takes place, when you are asleep or your eyes are closed. If you are sick, you have a deficiency of healing, therefore a deficiency of sleep. The body makes the healing of a bone a priority, as opposed to doing other things that are not quite as important. With additional sleep, and/or closing your eyes, the healing process will be better and faster. If you are unwell because of an injury, the more sleep and/or closing your eyes, the quicker you will heal. It does not matter what is or what causes your health problem, whether it is because of lifestyle abuse or external trauma. You need more sleep and/or closing your eyes. That is the most important thing you can do to make you well. HOW TO GAIN MORE ENERGY Vital energy is produced by the blessed elixir of sleep and/or closing your eyes. Sleep and/or closing your eyes are nature's great restorative healing processes. Vital energy is used up by all the activities of life. Vital energy is used up by physical activity, by talking, digestion, emotions, thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling and by sex. After activity, the brain grows weary and the physical demand for sleep and/or closing the eyes is great. Nerve cell fatigue or exhaustion is deep seated and much time is required to recover. It is the lowering of vital energy in the nerve cells which leads to physical and mental trouble. Carried to an extreme, it leads to a "nervous breakdown". Close your eyes to replenish your nerve cells and your nerves will get better and feel better. The actual storing up of the energy reserves or the energy sources of the body, takes place during rest. Activity expends and rest restores the bodily resources. The more the body is stimulated, the sooner it completely collapses. The weaker the body, the less it is able to withstand the action of stimulants. The weaker the body, the greater the necessity of "doing nothing" intelligently, just closing your eyes. When you close your eyes and pain, discomfort or depression prevents you from sleeping, keep your eyes closed, until the pain, discomfort or depression leaves. Concentrate, meditate, feel, think on the pain, discomfort or depression as intensely as you can. As long as you continue to do this, you will awaken just as refreshed as if you slept for that same period of time as when your eyes were closed. To heal yourself of disease, you should rest your brain and body, by keeping your eyes closed. Every activity of your eyes, depletes your vitality and inhibits restoration of your health. In every moment of your 24 hours, keep your eyes closed, just like dogs, cats and other pets do, and open your eyes only to satisfy your needs, whether your needs be biological, physical, mental, social, economic or spiritual. When you are sick, lie down, keep your body inactive, keep your eyes closed and concentrate, meditate, think on, keep your mind on your pain and discomfort, till your pain and distress completely disappear. Dr. Bernarr, D.C., D.D. God Healing, Inc. Natural Hygiene Society, Inc. P.O. Box 1523 Santa Monica California 90406 USA Telephone: 310-396-2914; 310-452-0458 Web Site: http://www.healself.org E-mail: drbernarr@aol.com - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 04:44:51 -0500 From: Bob Avery Subject: Re: [rawlife] lymph, leather, food 'n behavior, to kill or not to kill Don, >If you are a sedentary person, your lymph >system can stagnate. Bra wearing contributes to this also. Well, I guess 1 out of 2 ain't bad... (:-) >(And yes, I sell rebounders, but I don't care who you buy one from, just get one... and use it.) I got one. 1 out of 2... >It seems chimps are one of the primates furthest from us! Bonobos are closest. Checking the net, I find it appears to be a dead heat. Both are 98.4% genetically identical to humans. Jo, >http://www.bushorchimp.com/ Nice link, Jo! Bob Avery ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:55:02 -0700 From: Jo Yoshida Subject: Re: [rawlife] And the award goes to... >rather than following dogma of any kind from anyone, imo best way to go is >personal inquiry, experimentation and having an acute sense of unbiased >observation. Ultimately what matters is NOT what others say and do, but what >we personally know to be the truth. Unfortunately truth is often not always >readily discernible, hence many of the world's woes, yet if we're determined >to know the 'truth' we'll find it. So, as for Herbert Shelton's teachings, >perhaps give him credence where it's deserved and forgive him for any >unwitting mistakes. When all's said and done, IMO he has aimed straight for >the bullseye, ie most of what he says is spot on. As for any imperfections and >untruths, I don't take those on board, I am my own master and tread my own >path and receive help and goodness when it's offered and leave the rest by the >wayside. Hi Greg - thanks for your thoughtful reminder. I have to admit that I was a a follower of dogma and Dr. Shelton's words were very influential during my time as a raw vegan. I still believe that natural hygiene has much to offer in terms of health- building concepts but its dietary principles might benefit from a second or third look. I'm still a little disappointed that almost every Hygienic literature I've read over the years have conveniently failed to mention Dr. Shelton's prolonged suffering from Parkinson's Disease. Certainly I never heard about it until his death. All I read was that he was this unassailable figure whose intellectual integrity and depth of Hygienic experience was unmatched. And when I was a member of ANHS, there was not a mention of it in its flagship publication, Health Science. Several months ago I gave away my old Life Science home study course but I remember it freely included many articles from Dr. Shelton's Hygienic Review. Does anyone have a more recent compilation? and does it mention Dr. Shelton's Parkinson's disease? Cheers, Jo - -- - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 23:50:37 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] Herbert Shelton's illness Jo Yoshida wrote: > >rather than following dogma of any kind from anyone, imo best way to go is > >personal inquiry, experimentation and having an acute sense of unbiased > >observation. Ultimately what matters is NOT what others say and do, but what > >we personally know to be the truth. Unfortunately truth is often not always > >readily discernible, hence many of the world's woes, yet if we're determined > >to know the 'truth' we'll find it. So, as for Herbert Shelton's teachings, > >perhaps give him credence where it's deserved and forgive him for any > >unwitting mistakes. When all's said and done, IMO he has aimed straight for > >the bullseye, ie most of what he says is spot on. As for any imperfections and > >untruths, I don't take those on board, I am my own master and tread my own > >path and receive help and goodness when it's offered and leave the rest by the > >wayside. > > Hi Greg - thanks for your thoughtful reminder. I have to admit that I > was a a follower of dogma and Dr. Shelton's words were very > influential during my time as a raw vegan. I still believe that > natural hygiene has much to offer in terms of health- building > concepts but its dietary principles might benefit from a second or > third look. > > I'm still a little disappointed that almost every Hygienic literature > I've read over the years have conveniently failed to mention Dr. > Shelton's prolonged suffering from Parkinson's Disease. Jo, in my early raw days I purchased the Herbert Shelton book titled "Superior Nutrition". Inside the front cover was a photograph of Mr Shelton. To tell you the truth I was disappointed with what I saw for his face looked much too well padded and I got the distinct impression his personal diet must have been letting him down. Looking at his recipe suggestions at the back of the book he often included nuts with the meals. From personal observations of my own body I made the decision early on that nuts and fatty foods were not the ideal foods for the human body and Herbert Shelton's photograph reinforced those early beliefs in that regard. Now, almost 15 years later my dietary observations still reinforce the same conviction that nuts and fatty foods are not healthful foods (at least not when included in quantity). Perhaps if Herbert Shelton continued his whole life eating nuts on a regular basis then I wouldn't be altogether surprised he ended up with major health problems. Despite his largely excellent grasp of the truths of human health and nutrition perhaps he didn't recognize the adverse affects nuts and fatty foods were having on his own health. I don't know if this is the case just voicing a possible reason for his failure of health. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:39:58 -0500 From: don@health101.org Subject: [rawlife] healing, blood tests, diet provides enough?, Dr. Shelton "RIGHT" > I will tip my hand to Jo and agree that one diet may not be right for > everyone, which is also the point made over and over by Chet Day on his web > site. I believe that there is indeed one diet that all humans are designed for. I've been researching this very issue since I was a teenager - 28 years. My goal: To prove we didn't need to eat animals. I'm kidding. My goal: To discover if we are all designed to eat the same things, and if so, what things. And I wanted the truth THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL. We all have a liver. We all have a pancreas, and these, and other organs, all function the exact same way. The exact same way. The difference lies in the DEGREE of functionality. An diet of animal flesh and plant matter, and a diet of only plant matter, are two VERY different diets. It is physiologically impossible for members of the same species to be designed for two very different diets. Our physiologies are all the same, our biologies are all the same, our anatomies are all the same. The differences lie in the degree of functionality. A difference in degree of functionality is not a rationale for two diverse dietaries. We are more alike than different (on both the inside AND the outside). And even if (and it's a big if) someone appears to do "better" when eating animal flesh than when not, that is not a proof that some humans are designed to do better when they eat animal flesh and some humans are designed to do better when they don't. This has been my conclusion. I'm not going to debate it ad-nausium, it's all been said. Just as people get the gov'ment they deserve, people get the health they deserve. Another thing I've discovered: I can believe what I want... reality doesn't give a royal rat's rump what I believe. So I have a choice: Do I choose to believe what I want to believe? Do I choose to believe what others want me to believe? Do I choose to believe "what is"? DOES PLANT-BASED DIET HAVE WHAT IT TAKES? ENOUGH PROTEIN? > "I believe most people > who claim to do well long-term on vegan > diets do so because they don't follow their > diets strictly. I believe those who thrive on > vegan diets occasionally consume animal > foods containing essential nutritive factors." > - Chet Day Again, believe what you will. Personally, I haven't eaten a speak of animal food in over 20 years, and am doing better on a 100% uncooked plant-based diet of just fruits and veggies (with the variable occasional inclusion of some nuts), and no grains or beans. And I know others also thrive in this manner (and I'd bet the farm that they don't secretly indulge in animal "foods"). One of the things I wanted to know (as I've researched over these passed 28 years) is: Are there "essential nutritive factors" that must be obtained from eating some animal that can't be obtained from eating a plant-based only diet. My conclusion: There isn't. If the mucosal lining of the same intestine is "clear", and one doesn't consume alcohol or other substances that may inhibit the absorption of B12, then one should do fine B-12 wise. If one isn't, that is not a case for eating animal products (indeed there are many animal eaters who are low in B12, and/or who have high homocystiene levels not due entirely to the relatively high protein consumption). If there was some nutrient that I must get from animal food, I'm not getting it. And I'm still above room temperature. And feeling better than ever - and not due to any stimulatory effect (or all the marijuana I'm smoking... kidding). > If your nails are breaking... A possible sign of protein deprivation? If eating a 100% plant-based diet, and cooking much of it, maybe. My hair and nails and energy levels are all fine. Hair and nails are very dependent on getting enough protein. I rarely eat nuts/seeds, I only eat fruits and veggies (believe what you will), so I must be getting an adequate source of usable protein (as opposed to unusable protein). DR. HERBERT SHELTON > And Dr. Herbert Shelton suffered from Parkinson's disease from 1964 > till his death in 1989. This one is a mixed bag for me because I > deeply respect his knowledge and experience and yet I also have to > consider that his last 25 years were spent in a chronic degenerative > state, the last several years, bedridden. Why should I then give > credence to his expertise?? Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. He was correct about more things than he was incorrect about. Consider attending the August Healthful Living International symposium in San Antonio TX where you can pick the brains of some who knew Dr. Shelton personally. > Natural hygiene apologists like to explain it this way: that Dr. > Shelton himself failed to follow Hygienic principles (which always > work). His health practice, legal battles and writing projects led to > high levels of stress and an excessive work load which contributed to > the development of Parkinson's. So when he was resting in bed during > the last years of his life, when he undertook two lengthy fasts > during that period, why didn't he recover? When I am asked this about Dr. Shelton, I don't consider myself a "Natural Hygiene apologist". I merely attempt to offer an explanation. Many who know what is the right thing to do, often don't do it. Many who know the truth, want desperately to enlighten others for their benefit... and sometimes their own health suffers for it. Disease and wellness are a continuum. When one gets far enough along of the other, that's the one that will prevail despite transgressions or attempts at resolution. Degenerative disease also has as one of its causative factors, ones diathesis - genetic weaknesses (predispositions). Did this play a part in Dr. Shelton's demise? Maybe. Did his self-imposed work load, and non self-imposed legal battles play a part? Probably. Battling the legal system can cause restless sleep - and one NEEDS deep, restful, restorative sleep to deal with all conditions, especially Parkinsons. Consider the word "restless". Rest-less. We need restmore. ROLL YOUR OWN - LAB WORK, THAT IS. > "Trying to interpret lab tests is a very complex and very > specialized thing that requires knowledge far beyond the usual layperson’s ability," > said Dr. J. Edward Hill, chairman-elect of the American Medical Association. So, we get the necessary knowledge... what's the big deal! Our knowledge might be in our best interest, yes? > "...It’s unfathomable that people are going to order tests that > take years of medical training to understand." I got a BIG laugh outta this one! That "understanding" is drug/therapy based. HEALING AND THE OMNIVOROUS DIET Do I think an omnivorous diet plays a major negative role in people's lack of healing? Yes. More so an omnivorous diet as most Americans consume it; cooked, processed, with irritating condiments, and harmful chemical additives. I'm sure an omnivorous diet of raw animal flesh, with none of the above, would negatively affect healing less, but still some. IMO. Don - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 01:35:18 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] healing, blood tests, diet provides enough?, Dr. Shelton don@health101.org wrote: > HEALING AND THE OMNIVOROUS DIET > > Do I think an omnivorous diet plays a major negative role in people's lack of healing? Yes. More so an omnivorous diet as most Americans consume it; cooked, processed, with irritating condiments, and harmful chemical additives. I'm sure an omnivorous diet of raw animal flesh, with > none of the above, would negatively affect healing less, but still some. IMO. Don, yes to a degree and very dependent upon which aspect of health we are referring to, ie injury or illness. In regards to actual physical damage to tissue through traumatic injury, whether the dietary meat component of omnivores is THE reason for their lack of healing of chronic injuries such as paralysis is IMO highly unlikely. Remember, being a predominately or wholly vegan primate in the wild, or being a wholly herbivorous grazing animal, does not preclude the possibility of them incurring physical injuries which fail to heal inspite of partaking of such healthful vegan diet. Whilst diet is very powerful it is not the only factor in health and healing. Thus, IMO vegan diet is not the reason for my own lack of healing of my chronic back injury, nor do I believe omnivore diet is the reason for Christopher Reeve's lack of healing of paralysis. A bit of rational common sense goes a long way. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 18:25:14 From: "Diana Evans" Subject: [rawlife] New Rawfood Restaurant coming to NYC

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- -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:28:25 EST From: NAMASKA7@aol.com Subject: Re: [rawlife] Raw Bread & Crackers Lynda is a Great Raw Food chef trained by Victoria & Todd all Raw energy Foods: Raw Nori Crackers @ $12.00 lb Raw Rye Bread @ $14.00 lb. R Raw Cinnamon Bread @ $15.00 lb contact Lynda @ Alive and Raw@aol.com send check with your address to . L. Carter 867 Nance Dr. Petersburg VA 23803 - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:47:56 EST From: Rawsculpt@aol.com Subject: Re: [rawlife] holistic dentist in NYC Thanks Neil, I made an appointment with Benson Sheinkin. Thanks again, Risa In a message dated 4/3/02 11:39:05 AM, attuner@bestweb.net writes: << >I'm in need of a dentist---OOCH!!! and I have to find one in Manhattan benson sheinkin dds 212 302 4132 44th & bdwy. using his services since 1981. ahead of the curve in holistic dentistry. he taught others. at least see him for consult and then decide. you can use me for referral if you like. neil salka 845 362 5540 >> - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:16:33 -0700 From: Jo Yoshida Subject: Re: [rawlife] Lovely little animals and raw animal eating Jo: Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking has anything to do with unrealistic expectations being the seat of emotional turmoil. Greg: I'm questioning the validity of your cross species rationalization, ie it's okay for wildcats to eat birds implying it should be okay for you too. Jo: Yes it's OK for me, too. And my point was that maybe you're causing yourself undue stress by expecting people to abstain from food sources required for their body to function optimally. Greg: And the breeding, raising, transporting and final brutal act of killing animals for human consumption doesn't involve UNNECESSARY pain especially when plenty of wholly nutritious vegan foods are available to partake of instead? Jo: Blindly subscribing to your "wholly nutritious vegan foods" paradigm has caused some people UNNECESSARY pain and emotional anguish. What should these people do? continue to suffer and sacrifice their health for your ethical standards? Jo: But the constant pain of 14 years tells me something else is negatively influencing your health. Since diet is one of the major influences.... Greg: Do you also think the omnivore diet of Christopher Reeve similarly negatively influences his lack of healing from long standing paralysis? Jo: Yes, if he's still in pain. Definitely. I'm not talking about a severed spinal cord restoring itself to full neurological function. I'm referring to the cessation of pain. Pain is a symptom of progressive deterioration and damage. You can live with it, you can convince yourself that the soft / hard tissue will never heal completely due to the severity of your injury, but I just don't feel that ignoring the warning sign of pain itself is a sensible approach to securing some measure of stability in the functional integrity of your spine (from your recent posts I'm assuming you can't climb a tree to harvest mangoes because of the pain?). BTW, would you care to share the results of your December bone scans (or whatever test procedure you had planned on having)? Greg: May as well add a few hundred million other omnivores to the list of peoples who have not yet recovered from their long standing traumatic injuries to the soft tissues. Do you similarly think their omnivore diet plays a major negative role in their lack of healing? Or do you only consider diet a negative factor when it involves "vegan diet" as in my case? Jo: Again, if the pain persists, surely some form of correction is in order (though not necessarily diet only). For you, me, Superman, or anyone else. In your case, I do suspect your raw vegan diet might be the culprit because you're a long-term adherent and I'm assuming the rest of your lifestyle is devoid of any other health-destroying practices (or questionable exercises for the spine). Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assumption. But if I'm right, why is the pain chronic? I mean, for 14 years??? Do you consider this reasonable? I don't. Something's not right. If you honestly know there's nothing else involved, then what else could it be? what's really holding you back from making the needed changes to your diet? [*] Greg: Yet I am discerning a mixed message from you, on the one hand you seem to be assuring me you wouldn't kill my cute little animal friends, yet on the other hand you're implying my concern is unreasonable on the basis it's okay for wildcats to eat the local bird life. Can you not see the subtle contradiction in your message? Jo: I'll try to make it unambiguous: unless I was starving, I don't think it's worth my time and energy to eat your birds. I also wouldn't want to upset you unnecessarily by killing those animals with which you interact directly. If you expect me to abide by your ethics for other game or fowl or fish; if you expect a wild cat to leave alone birds outside your garden, then you're setting yourself up for some big disappointments (emotional stress) in life. Needlessly. Greg: Whilst you have assured me you wouldn't kill and eat the specific individual birds in question you'd likely have no hesitation in killing and eating other equally cute and lovely animals nearby and elsewhere. Yourself plus a few billion other omnivores collectively impose great suffering and destruction to countless innocent animals on planet earth. They really do suffer you know in the process of supplying humans with meat. Compare the suffering therein to the virtual complete lack of suffering of vegan diet comprised of tree ripened fruits, perhaps some nuts, seeds and leaves if desired. Jo: [*] In our past discussions, I've covered the risks involved with vicarious suffering. Could this be the reason why you cannot even consider adopting animal source foods, even if it means proper healing for your back? i.e. you want to remove your pain but not at the expense of killing or inflicting pain on other living beings. Greg: Big difference in global impact on planetary consciousness. Jo: That's your opinion. But it seems you're finally admitting that you feel only raw vegans can be consciously-evolved individuals. Greg: You've misunderstood me Jo, the fruits of the trees are given freely by nature, eating fruits, nuts, seeds and possibly a few leaves involves no pain and suffering to the life-forms involved thus no reason whatsoever to substitute those harmless natural foods for laboratory alternatives. Yet on the other hand the breeding, raising and killing of animals for human consumption does certainly involve much pain and suffering to the animals in question, Jo: I agree with your comparison if you're describing the typical animal factory farms. Also, animals are given freely by nature as well. Greg: therefore on THAT basis it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask the meat tissue be cultured in controlled laboratory conditions much like other foods such as cheese, yogurt, injera, bread, idlis etc are cultured foods for human consumption. Jo: Except that you've failed to consider my preference for natural, unprocessed sources (raw butter would be one exception). Free will, remember? You cannot use it to justify your way of life and then conveniently forget to apply it to those who do not act and think like you do. BTW, I believe it's possible for me to survive by supplementing my plant-based diet with eggs and raw dairy. As it is, my meat consumption is only a few pounds a week. Maybe I could drop it altogether and become a lacto-ovo-vegetarian. Or it might be that my physical lifestyle might benefit from red meat. We'll see. Greg: Perhaps next time before killing and eating your next raw animal food meal spend some time observing the said animal and relate to it's innate sense of joy and purpose, then you may ask yourself the question whether it's immoral or not to take it's life away when other highly nutritious 'vegan foods' are readily available. Jo: I know where I stand: it's not immoral. So I ask YOU again: Do you consider as immoral or non-evolved, those people who hunt and eat animals (or have others kill and prepare them for subsequent consumption)? Please answer the question. Yes or no. Your answer will help avoid a lot of unneeded repetition and misunderstanding between us. Cheers, Jo - -- - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:54:17 -0600 From: "Jay Banks" Subject: [rawlife] Re: Herbert Shelton's illness / one diet for all humans. Don wrote: > I believe that there is indeed one diet that all humans are > designed for. I've been researching this very issue since > I was a teenager - 28 years. Greg wrote: >Looking at his recipe suggestions at the back of the book he often included > nuts with the meals. From personal observations of my own body I made the decision > early on that nuts and fatty foods were not the ideal foods for the human body and > Herbert Shelton's photograph reinforced those early beliefs in that regard. > > Now, almost 15 years later my dietary observations still reinforce the same > conviction that nuts and fatty foods are not healthful foods (at least not when > included in quantity). Now see, I think this is funny because I have come to the exact opposite conclusion. In my early twenties I went on a strict vegetarian diet -- a meatless version of the SAD diet, and I did eat dairy -- but I lumped all fats together, good or bad, and avoided them like the plague (mid-80s to early 90s, when "low fat" was just starting to be the "in" thing). I lost a lot of weight but I was basically a skinny person with all the same health problems I had had as a heavy person. Going raw -- and I'm not as pure as some on this list, but I have gone for weeks at a time eating almost all raw; so I get to throw my two cents in, too -- I can tell you I do much better with fats and nuts. Why, just the other day, I was just trying to imagine what life would be like without avocados, and I don't think I would make it without them. And I don't eat a huge amount of nuts, but when I do, they hit the spot. I also eat 1/4 cup of Flax seed every day and love them. But if we, in our own raw-food communities, can't decide what is best, isn't it kind of presumptuous of us to try and dictate our diet on every human? I know Jo thinks fats are important, and I think, from what he has posted, Bob would, too (I'm trying not to put words in anyone's mouth). Since we all claim to do better going higher in fat, how do you guys know we aren't the one on the "right" diet? We say we feel great...and you say you feel great going low fat. Maybe then, there isn't one diet for everyone? Don wrote: > And even if (and it's a big if) someone appears to do "better" when > eating animal flesh than when not, that is not a proof that > some humans are designed to do better when they eat animal > flesh and some humans are designed to do better when they don't. My own, definitely *non-scientific* theory here is, we were designed by God to eat only vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds. However, like Pottinger's Cats, we have mutated due to long-term bad eating in general. And, while it may be nice and romantic to believe that we were never supposed to eat animals, if you were a pioneer stuck in a bad snow storm on your way to California in a covered wagon, you went out and shot a deer or you just sat there and died. So this is the conclusion I have come to: eating animals isn't always the ultimate evil. But eating factory-farmed animals is the ultimate evil. I think meats are horribly polluted, and since I don't have access to anything I would remotely consider clean, my goal is to be as close to (raw) vegan as possible. However, if I "slip up" and eat some sushi, or have some shrimp or crawfish when I go out to eat with the family, so what? You live and you die...and life goes on. I will say that I am much more in line with groups like PETA than I have ever been in my life, though. Which is kind of scary for me, I must admit. Jay - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ End of rawlife-digest V1 #950 ***************************** --- ******************* END OF POST ****************************** RAWLIFE-DIGEST - faq at http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html