From: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com (rawlife-digest) To: rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Subject: rawlife-digest V1 #663 Reply-To: rawlife@rawtimes.com Sender: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Errors-To: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Precedence: bulk rawlife-digest Tuesday, July 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 663 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 14:06:33 +0000 From: dukeofchurchill@att.net Subject: Re: [rawlife] Adult question I suspose that is a good question. How do you harvest or prepare the Aloe for usage? Peel the leaf and spread it where needed? Russell - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:23:10 -0600 From: Jo Yoshida Subject: Re: [rawlife] Apes and animal foods >Jo, okay Mr Smartie pants, it sounds like you're a red hot knowledge >base. If you >really do know what your're talking about then you'll know the answer to your >question below. So rather than me giving more of my time answering this simple >question of yours, how about you tell us? It's easy mate. > >> Have you also considered the possibility that these apes did not die >> out precisely because of their judicious use of animal source foods? Hi Greg - I don't know the answer and I'm not presumptuous enough to assume what you think. This is why I posed the question. And I think it's a fair one considering the data presented and the fact that many in the raw vegan community base their food choices on the modelling of primate diets. I realize that we've just gone through a long, intense discussion about spirituality, but this is another thread altogether. Let's try not to personalize the issue. I mean, it's just a debate about one aspect of human nutrition. Is it really necessary to disparage someone with whom you don't agree? Why do you feel so threatened when your position is questioned logically? Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the above question. Sincerely, Jo - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:28:29 -0400 From: "Jen Lim" (by way of steps ) Subject: [rawlife] Experiencing rawfood To whom it may concern, I am in the process of experiencing & enjoying raw food. Desiring to be a totally rawfooder some day. Need some encouragement, for none of the people around me does that. Jen Lim health advocate - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:31:49 -0400 From: GrapevineSanDiego moderator (by way of JR Ellis ) Subject: [rawlife] Invitation to join the GrapevineSanDiego group Hello, You've been invited to join the GrapevineSanDiego group, an email group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY: 1) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send" in your email program - -OR- 2) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site at http://groups.yahoo.com/invite/GrapevineSanDiego By joining GrapevineSanDiego, you will be able to exchange messages with other group members. Yahoo! Groups also makes it easy to store photos and files, coordinate events and more. Here's an introductory message from the group moderator: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greetings! Helene here, inviting all to subscribe to a list- serve I have just created. It is still in the experimental stages and forgive me if you receive this message again as I clean out my files, update addresses, condense, and hopefully create a more efficient system for relaying info about a multitude of fun, exciting, meaningful events! Please join me in networking and receiving info through this fun "grapevine" system. Become a part of GrapevineSanDiego@yahoogroups.com and be in the know about what's happening! I welcome comments as we create this list- serve together. Pax Vobiscum, Helene - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to join the GrapevineSanDiego group, please ignore this invitation. SPECIAL NOTE FROM Yahoo! Groups: Because Yahoo! Groups values your privacy, it is a violation of our service rules for moderators to abuse this invitation feature. If you feel this has happened, please notify us at abuse@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 01:33:11 -0400 From: "George Sirbu" (by way of JR Ellis ) Subject: [rawlife] Raw I Have been "Raw" (99%) since Sept. 13, 2000. At times I find it difficult to stay the course. Any suggestions? - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 00:01:04 -0700 From: "Hal R. Haley" Subject: [rawlife] Lighten up. I've just stolen this from one of J.R.'s web pages; it is a good tempering tool for those of us who suffer from occaisional bouts of seriousness disease: HOW MANY INTERNET MAIL LIST SUBSCRIBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? Submitted by Daniel Greene 1,331 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Daniel Greene dgreene@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/dgreene/ - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:57:20 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] Apes and animal foods Jo Yoshida wrote: > Hi Greg - I don't know the answer and I'm not presumptuous enough to > assume what you think. Hi Jo, come on now. Here are your patronizing words:- "if you're going to cite primate biology as a basis of your position, then please (for your sake) be extremely diligent with accuracy", and "if you are modeling your diet after the great apes (and aspire to match their physical prowess), then you may have to update your knowledge base concerning primate diets". Thereby indicating you presume to know what I do and do not know in regards to primate diet and biology. > This is why I posed the question. And I think > it's a fair one considering the data presented and the fact that many > in the raw vegan community base their food choices on the modelling > of primate diets. Yes I agree with you, it is a fair question, yet unbeknownst to you I've been researching this question for some time now precisely because it does need a satisfactorily answer. In the process I've uncovered valuable information concerning primate diet, however there are many important questions left unanswered. I've posted on this late last year and had intended to post more, but I certainly am not going to offer answers to your question immediately after you've just presumed to tell me my knowledge on primate diet is misguided or lacking. > I realize that we've just gone through a long, intense discussion > about spirituality, but this is another thread altogether. Yes it's a different thread, yet so far there is every indication you're entering this conversation with the same rigidity of mind as the last thread and I am tired and can hardly be bothered going another round of that. > Let's try not to personalize the issue. Well, I think you did that by assuming I need to update my knowledge. > I mean, it's just a debate about one > aspect of human nutrition. Is it really necessary to disparage > someone with whom you don't agree? But if the conversation can't even get past the most elementary basics without getting stuck in the mud then it's a pretty poor show isn't it. You see, I don't have one hundred years to work through this debate, time and energy is precious, at least to me. > Why do you feel so threatened when > your position is questioned logically? Firstly Jo, if you are going to question me is such manner then you will only get my back up even more. I do not feel threatened by your personally, nor do I feel threatened when presented with good quality questions. The issue Jo is simply that many of your questions and comments are lacking in logic and I don't have a lot of time and energy to go round-n-round the mulberry bush with you trying to gets things on track. Example - your belief that quality of consciousness is independent of the state of the body, it's nervous system and brain is entirely lacking in common sense and logic, yet you just don't get it. Even now, in your comment above you've chosen to question me personally rather than do some honest reflection upon your own input. > Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the above question. Okay, thanks, then I will post what I know on the subject. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 7:31:8 -0700 From: "David Swiger" Subject: RE: [rawlife] Raw - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jen, What are you eating? One thing for sure is that eating raw is not easy in this society with so many temptations around us. I'll never forget the words of one pioneer in raw food eating, Teresa Mitchell who said that she had to keep an image of her goal in her mind and the sooner she said NO to any temptation the easier it was to say NO the next time. But even if you do slip up and eat something cooked, it's not the end of the world. Just get back on the diet you know works for your body and each thing that you eat is a positive thing for your health. It helps to read about others experiences who are also raw eaters. I Have been "Raw" (99%) since Sept. 13, 2000. At times I find it difficult to stay the course. Any suggestions? Jen Lim health advocate - --- David Swiger - --- rawhealth7@earthlink.net - --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jen,
 
What are you eating?  One thing for sure is that eating raw is not easy in this society with so many temptations around us.  I'll never forget the words of one pioneer in raw food eating, Teresa Mitchell who said that she had to keep an image of her goal in her mind and the sooner she said NO to any temptation the easier it was to say NO the next time.
 
But even if you do slip up and eat something cooked, it's not the end of the world.  Just get back on the diet you know works for your body and each thing that you eat is a positive thing for your health. 
 
It helps to read about others experiences who are also raw eaters.
 
 

I Have been "Raw" (99%) since Sept. 13, 2000.  At times I find it difficult
to stay the course.  Any suggestions?
 
 
Jen Lim
health advocate
 
 
 

 
--- David Swiger
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:38:43 -0600 From: Jo Yoshida Subject: Re: [rawlife] Eating meat - the thin veneer of respectability!! >> I'm just >> another person interested in raw foods and its relationship to my >> health. That's all. > >Jo, that's not all. You attempt to make an omnivore diet appear >morally balanced, >respectable, wholesome and nice, yet when all's said and done, all >your advocating >is your own selfish right to go hunt and kill animals and the gross >pleasures of >eating their raw flesh, organs and bone marrow. Lest anyone here >forget, to be a >raw foodist omnivore (as Jo is advocating the virtues of) one must >either kill the >animal oneself or have a slaughter house do it for us. Is that >really what we want >to discuss, encourage and aspire to on this list? > >Personally this whole subject repulses me and I'm not interested in hearing >conversation about hunting and killing, nor am I interested in >hearing recipes and >tips on how to prepare and eat dead animal carcass, nor am I going >to sit back and >passively support the fallacy that those neatly packaged strips of >succulent red >beef you see at the supermarket are devoid of animal suffering. Because behind >that thin veneer of respectability lies countless deep moans and >groans of animal >agony. > >The bottom line is, there is no nice way to kill an animal, >dismember it and eat >it. The eating of meat inevitably involves great suffering and on >that basis alone >vegan diet is the moral choice. If we want to fix dietary >deficiencies then let us >learn how to do it with vegan foods, not with flesh foods! Hi Greg - I don't know what more to say. I'm just sharing my knowledge and experience. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm not attacking anyone's lifestyle. I'll listen to and consider what others have to say about raw foods, vegan or otherwise. I remain open. I know how you feel about eating other creatures. I respect that. I've been there. Now, I've made different choices. If you can't handle it, please delete my posts. Don't read them at all. If you're going to post statements like "fruit juices are nutritionally identical to mother's milk," please be prepared to support such claims. You have 14 years of raw vegan / fruitarian lifestyle experience. What a valuable asset to this group! Please share your knowledge and experience. Don't let me dissuade you from sharing. There's room for different viewpoints on this list. There's room for all kinds of people on this earth. There is always more room for love and true compassion. Sincerely, Jo - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:39:07 -0600 From: Jo Yoshida Subject: Re: [rawlife] Apes and animal foods >Yes I agree with you, it is a fair question, yet unbeknownst to you I've been >researching this question for some time now precisely because it does need a >satisfactorily answer. In the process I've uncovered valuable information >concerning primate diet, however there are many important questions left >unanswered. I've posted on this late last year and had intended to >post more, but I >certainly am not going to offer answers to your question immediately >after you've >just presumed to tell me my knowledge on primate diet is misguided or lacking. >> Let's try not to personalize the issue. > >Well, I think you did that by assuming I need to update my knowledge. Hi Greg - I apologize if my suggestion to you to update your knowledge of primate biology was out of line. I had no intention of insulting you. My comment was based on the disparity between the information you posted and recent data concerning animal source consumption by primates. I'd still appreciate it if you could share your research into this issue. Cheers, Jo - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:28:11 +0200 From: kleinm@who.ch Subject: RE: [rawlife] Eating meat - the thin veneer of respectability!! Dear Jo and others who read, the fact that flesh of animals has received vibrations of pain from the killing, and the adrenalin or other toxins created in the process DOES affect the person who eats it. the mind will not be as stable. everything we eat has an effect on us, either positive or negative. and the state of mind in which we eat also will either be beneficial or not. as a human being, if you have one negative thought that disturbs all the 700 neurons in your brain and that has an effect on your body feel and health. best regards theresa - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 23:41:40 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] Apes and animal foods Ruth Allen wrote: > Hi Greg.... I have much appreciated and agreed with much of what you have > shared in your mails.. thankyou. Hi Ruth, thanks for you kind feedback. > I am a raw food vegan.. but I am open to hear what others have to share... > and I feel you might be 'deflecting' the very valid and factual point made > by this Jo.... the information he shares is actually correct. Actually I've been researching into the issue of primate diet for a while now. > Had you thought to actually address it? Yes, yet am hesitant to put in more time and energy when Jo disregards elementary self-evident truths. > I find I learn a lot by conscious debate.. because when I read sincere > satisfactory answers. it helps me with people I work with... > I learn more fully how to address other peoples many many many questions.... > I always feel a bit yucky inside when I witness this avoidance of addressing > specific points within raw foodism. > Not because i want to challenge or negate raw food veganism - Yep, I feel that way too. > I have noticed for myself.. that if I ask questions that might appear to > threaten or challenge the raw food dogma.. they are either ignored or > belittled... so I have stopped! > Obviously in time my body will guide me well.. as i feel it is doing at > present.. I am content with my choices... Ruth, I've looked into this for a while now, I like you want the truth and I certainly am not going to stop people questioning, but I do get exasperated if a person continually refuse to accept a reasonable common sense answer. > If in actual fact the natural wild choice of the primate is faulty??? as you > seemingly suggest, because of their animal inclusion... does this then not > negate any input relating to looking towards nature for our answers.... Good question, I think we can still look towards nature yet we need to be careful what interpretations we make. Will say more on this later. > I am not by any mean advocating meat eating... but during my first year > raw... I have once again looked at the natural diet of the human and I am > sure - that although I consciously choose not to eat meat or birds eggs or > dairy....or honey..... I have had to accept that if human beings were > living as a raw fooder in the wild..(which they would of course be doing) - > I am sure they would most certainly have included eggs, honey and insects.. > I am not saying that it is in our nature to go hunting game... (I sincerely > don't know)..... > But taking of eggs and honey I would suspect? is quite natural. Yep all good quality valid points you've raised and they need to receive a satisfactory answer. If the conversation smoothes out then hopefully we can address them. > We don't actually have any history I don't think? of any human being that > has in the past lived totally on fruits.... that we know about. we are > surmising.... Yep another good point. I posted on this late last year. Can even go further and say that as far as I know there are no 100% frugivore animals, ie frugivore diets are supplement with leaves, or flowers, or insects etc. > human beings existed long before fire.... > > But I wonder.. I really do wonder.. whether there were human beings > wandering around who ate only fruit... I would suspect not. Yes and I agree with you Ruth, I suspect not too. Interesting subject and would love to say more on this later. > Personally I feel we are in a fortunate? position to be able to make > choices. Yep very true. > I always get concerned when I notice peoples needs to 'defend' their > choices.... Umm, not exactly sure what you mean... unfortunately sometimes defense is needed. > I think its important to stay spacious and open.?.... to listen to > everyone's experience... ? > And we are talking about experience here.. Yeah, but only if people are willing to move and flow with the truth when revealed, otherwise it is just a merry-go-round. > I sincerely feel that anyone who is aspiring to eat more consciously however > they perceive that needs manifest, is part of our journey.... > If I speak out of turn.. don't hesitate to tell me.... > I have not been within the Rawlife group that long... So maybe there is > history between you two that I am unaware of... No history between us. I'm all for us being together in the journey, yet when one person's refusal to grasp elementary truths stagnates the conversation then it can be a real problem. > The killing of animals is not an optimal in my life.... but I am not emotive > about it... animals kill one another.... and we are all part of the meat > industries to some degree or other.. Yes, however what may be right for the animal is not necessarily right for the human being. > I certainly don't like the killing factories. and have several videos that > have activated others to leave meat out of their diet completely... with > many benefits... > I am not at all supporting or advocating meat eating.. > But I do feel that as we come together space needs to be created to hear all > beings.... > Is there really need for argument as such.... Concerning arguing, I guess it depends on which perspective we're coming from. If we were the pigs or the cows which have been shipped overseas on a long voyage stuck in tiny pens with no room to turn around and loaded off the ship and taken to the abattoirs and had our throat's slit and dismembered, then I guess we could say this present conversation is incredibly mild and good natured considering what's at stake. As long as it's not us personally who is doing the suffering then it is easy to put distance between the action of eating meat and the suffering caused by it. And the same goes for the point I've been making on body-consciousness. When God and heaven are so close at hand and when one close minded person ignorantly dismisses the concept that body affects consciousness, then again, considering what's at stake, the conversation has been very mild indeed, yet it could have been much smoother sailing. Regards, Greg Woolley > - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:41:34 -0400 From: "Cory Tuchelt" (by way of JR Ellis ) Subject: [rawlife] Questions Hello, I have a few questions, please. Do you really enjoy your food? I know that I should be eating raw foods but everytime I try any of the raw food recipes on the sites and others, I can't even gag it down. What is wrong with me? Will I ever be able to eat raw foods and actually enjoy them? I am just really hoping that I might just get used to it and begin to like it? I also have been trying juicing lately but I can't stand those either. The only juice I can stand is carrot mixed with other vegetables because it's sweet but I am not supposed to have carrot juice because I have Candida overgrowth. I read somewhere that a person can get rid of Candida by eating raw fruits and vegetables only because aparently Candida can't survive in a clean environment in your body. But most everything I have read has said "yeasts thrive on any kind of sugar, including fruit". What is your view on that? I am getting very discouraged about the whole thing because I really want to eat raw but I just can't!!! I would really appreciate your response. Thanks Cory Lynn Tuchelt - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 01:36:13 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] Being open... and a bit on meat-primate diet Jo Yoshida wrote: > Hi Greg - I don't know what more to say. I'm just sharing my > knowledge and experience. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm not > attacking anyone's lifestyle. Hi Jo, that sounds very admirable however those issues aren't at stake. The problem has been one of your unwillingness to acknowledge truths when presented as such and then move to the new point of reference. For any conversation to go anywhere, there must be willingness from both sides to look at what's been put on the table, to be open to it and take it one step at a time, trusting that truth will guide us. > I'll listen to and consider what others > have to say about raw foods, vegan or otherwise. I remain open. Jo okay that sounds good, me likewise, so I'll ask these questions starting afresh, giving you renewed respect and full trust that you are open as you say you are:- * Is it not true that alcohol, LSD, Alzheimer's disease and lobotomy profoundly affects the content and the quality of perception and consciousness? * Thus the body can and does affect consciousness in a profound manner? * Diet and lifestyle affects the body therefore affects consciousness? * And is it not true these are universal truths? * And this being true does it not also follow, if we're wise, we'll treat our bodies in such manner which enables them to function at their highest potential enhancing our perception and consciousness? > I know how you feel about eating other creatures. I respect that. > I've been there. Now, I've made different choices. If you can't > handle it, please delete my posts. Don't read them at all. That is what amazes me Jo, it seems you've already sown it up and case dismissed regardless of the real issue of animal suffering and regardless of alternative solutions to the nutritional problem you were having. So, yes if you really have made your different choice then I am wasting my time talking. > If you're going to post statements like "fruit juices are > nutritionally identical to mother's milk," please be prepared to > support such claims. They are your words Jo, if you had been around for a while, you'll know that I don't post information like that. > You have 14 years of raw vegan / fruitarian lifestyle experience. > What a valuable asset to this group! Please share your knowledge and > experience. Thanks, I'm trying to. > Don't let me dissuade you from sharing. There's room for > different viewpoints on this list. Yes indeed, but when those differing view points are constantly dismissive of elementary truths, then the whole things just crumbles into unproductive party chatter. So what kind of conversation do we want, one of substance, or just a rambling mix of whatever goes? > There's room for all kinds of > people on this earth. There is always more room for love and true > compassion. Yes and highly relevant to the topic of meat. Anyway, change of subject:- Jo rest assured if you tell me a truth then as best I can I'll acknowledge it as such. Even before you arrived on the scene, I had made posts here telling of my experiences of eating meat vs grains, beans, seeds, nuts. I had said quite openly, in my experience meat has a cleaner affect in my body than does grains, beans, seeds, nuts. So I have nothing to hide, I don't evade facts and try to skew things to fits with my own theories, I take each thing as it comes to hand and I trust that by doing so freedom is won. So, you have no enemy from me, yet I also expect a corresponding openness and willingness from those I talk to. Anyway, lastly I'll offer a few thoughts on why meat has cleaner affect than whole grains etc. First and foremost the tissues of normally healthy animals do not contain toxins (except certain parts of poisonous fish) because the healthy body eliminate toxins out of the body, the tissues and cells ideally stay pristinely clean and free of toxins with clean blood circulating around the body feeding the cells, ie beautifully clean healthy flesh. [I have just read Theresa's post on adrenaline and other toxins generated at killing. Quite probably that is true yet I don't know enough on that to comment]. This is a different story to plant foods such as leaves, grains, legumes, seeds, nuts where toxins are specifically manufactured to protect the food from being eaten by animals (except ripe fruits which are generally non-toxic and designed to be eaten and taken away to disperse the seeds). Also, meat is high in the amino-acid methionine, which is a vital amino-acid for the production of glutathione a powerful body detoxifiier and anti-oxidant used in the liver to detoxify the blood. In my opinion these two things mean fresh healthy meat is a clean and nutritious food for the body. In comparison, the equivalent amount of whole grain protein or legume protein etc contain greater proportions of natural toxins and lesser quantity of methionine, thus the body is loaded with more toxins and is supplied with less detoxifying agents to help detoxify them. So meat is a nutritious food and many animals thrive on it, but having said that many primates similarly thrive on a purely vegan diet or on a predominately vegan diet with only small amounts of animal products. So we have it both ways and imo it's not just a simple matter of choosing meat purely based upon it's known nutritional attributes, for there are other factors to consider. The way primates in the wild get around the problem of plant food toxicity is to eat from a large range of diverse species of plants and to select from the least toxic parts of those plants, ie from the young tender tips of the leaves. There is much more involved in this, but I thought you may be interested in those bits and pieces. Regards, Greg Woolley > - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 03:49:20 +0800 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] Some info on vegan primate diet Jo Yoshida wrote: > I'd still appreciate it if you could share your research into this issue. Hi Jo, okay no problems. Your question earlier was:- "Have you also considered the possibility that these apes did not die out precisely because of their judicious use of animal source foods"? Good question and the short answer is the gorilla (97.7% similar DNA as humans) has survived well through the millennia on a vegan diet as has the Ethiopian Gelada Baboon (which of all primates has vocal cords most similar to humans, they even make human child like sounds). - ---------------------------------- Gorillas * Mountain gorillas are primarily folivores. Their diets consist mainly of foliage, herbs and vines, where leaves make up 68% of intake, stems 25%, pith 2.5%, epithelium from roots 1.4 %, and remaining 4 % from bark, roots, flowers and fruit. * The western lowland gorilla tends to consume more fruit, however green plant material still occupies most of their diet. * The Cameroon gorilla diet consists of 23% vines, 38% herbs, 24 % saplings and 15% trees. * The eastern lowland gorilla diet seems to be closer to the western lowland gorilla than the mountain gorilla, but there is a lack of information in the literature. * Western lowland gorillas of Gabon consume slightly different proportions of food than the mountain gorilla, with leaves and stems accounting for twice the intake of fruit. Gorillas, as vegetarians, appear to shift their food intake according to seasonal variations and food availability and according to one researcher there was no evidence of animal matter being either consumed or found in their feces. Gorillas consume a wide variety of plant species, with 50 to 300 species reported. However they are very selective, choosing only certain parts of the vegetation at certain times of the year. Also the gorillas feed upon different parts of differing plants, for example the base and tips of young leaves are selected from some plants, while it's the mature leaves of other plants that are eaten. According to Fitsgerald et all even captive gorillas are selective vegetarian feeders, with vegetables, fruit and nuts preferred over white potatoes, crackers and raw beef. - ------------------------------------------ Gelada baboon The Ethiopian Gelada baboons live on the savanna table lands of Ethiopia and are exclusively herbivorous eating the greenest blades of grasses, their roots, bulbs and rhizomes with their choice of food changing throughout the year depending on seasonal availability. They are beautiful looking creatures, the males having long flowing dark brown hair from their upper body. (Note These baboons aren't the ones with the red snout and red bum like the baboons you often see on tv). A while back I saw a documentary on National Geographic or Discovery on these baboons, very impressive animals, dynamic and literally bursting with vibrancy and vitality. I got inspired to eat grass after seeing that hehe... During the wet season (July and August), green grass blades are abundant and make up 93% of the diet of these baboons. In November, when the grasses have seeded, the seeds make up 70% of their diet. During the dry season (January and February), 67% of their food is grass rhizomes and 25% grass blades. Geladas are also known to harvest fruits, tubers, and flowers and stems throughout the year. Gelada baboons are highly specialized feeders. The opposability of their first digits is the highest of all the catarrhine primates and allows them to pick grass blades individually so that they can sort good grass from bad grass during the dry season. It is also notable that their phalanges are short and robust, which allows them to dig efficiently for tubers when desired. These specialization's allow the Gelada baboon to take advantage of grassland environments that other primates can not inhabit as successfully. It has been suggested that the Gelada, with their highly developed precision grip, resemble the early hominids, who were also small object feeders. Also, the digestive system of the Gelada Baboon is not especially specialized for fermentation of cellulose, thus they must chew the grass well to extract maximum goodness, ie it's feasible humans could similarly extract goodness from these grasses if they ate enough of it, or juiced it. The grasses they eat are the common couch grass (Cynodon dactylon), Andropogon pratensis and Bothriochloa pertusa. I looked up the last two grasses a while ago, but forget their details. The Gelada’s occupation of a graminivorous niche offers much protection on the Ethiopian savanna; no other primate shares the same feeding habits and schedule as the Gelada. In high temperature areas, grasses lose water throughout the day; during the dry season, the grasses quickly desiccate. As Gelada must thoroughly masticate their food to extract maximum nutrition, dried grass is not sufficient for their diet, and they must feed on more easily digested roots and herbs. At altitudes lower than 1,500 meters above sea level, the grass quality would generally be too poor for the Gelada’s sustenance. Most herbivores have developed strategies to effectively digest their high cellulose diet; some have microbial fauna in the fore stomach or hind-gut fermentation, the former being found in ruminant mammals and primates that are chiefly foliovorous. It would be expected that the Gelada, with their almost exclusively graminivorous diet, have some sort of digestive adaptation; however, no research has yet proven this. The chief method of food digestion in the Gelada is thorough mastication; thus, the nutrient extraction abilities of the Gelada are much poorer than those of the grazing ungulates, with whom they share similar diets . So you see, these primates too (though the baboon is only 56% similar in DNA to humans) have lived highly successfully on a purely vegan diet and if you get to see a good quality photo or a documentary on them, you'll know what I mean about them being beautiful and brimming with vitality. - -------------------------------------- Smaller primates I haven't looked much into the lesser primates, however I think certain gibbons are vegan frugivores, fruit comprising 60% and leaves 30% of the diet for most of the smaller gibbons, yet monthly proportions of fruit sometimes exceed 90% or fall below 30%. Will look into the Howler monkey, Proboscus monkey and Lemur, some of which I think are vegan, but will need to check. - --------------------------------------- So Jo there are two larger primates at least which are doing very well on an exclusive vegan diet. As for the Chimp, Bonobo and the Orangutan it seems well documented they do eat varying amounts of animals foods, with different sources offering slightly different figures, being 5%'ish of over-all diet. Yet, since primates can be opportunistic feeders, it's feasible they could survive adequately without animals foods and since primates copy and learn from one another, including eating behaviors, it's also feasible that animal products are a learnt addition to their basic vegan diet and hence it's very difficult to say one way or the other exactly crucial or not the small percentage of animal foods is to their over all health and survival. The main staple for the chimp, bonobo, orangutan and many other primates is the wild fig. This fig being higher in fibre, protein and minerals than our domesticated relative. Will post more later. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ End of rawlife-digest V1 #663 ***************************** --- ******************* END OF POST ****************************** RAWLIFE-DIGEST - faq at http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html