From: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com (rawlife-digest) To: rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Subject: rawlife-digest V1 #1044 Reply-To: rawlife@rawtimes.com Sender: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Errors-To: owner-rawlife-digest@rawtimes.com Precedence: bulk rawlife-digest Monday, August 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1044 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:40:01 -0400 From: astrosue Subject: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS From: "Don Hunt" OUCH, I went "totally vegan" two days ago and last night I had the most horrible leg cramps I have ever felt. Two days ago I had cantaloup for breakfast, watermelon for lunch, and avacado for dinner, with some almonds two hours later, the next day I ate fresh cabbage from the garden, a beefsteak tomato from the produce store, a part of a walla walla sweet onion, a few almonds, two plumbs, and a banana in the morning, today I ate a banana so far. What else can I do to get rid of these vicious leg cramps? HELP Don - ----------------------- Don, Aren't they awful? Do you get knots forming during sleep that awaken you rudely? I have found that a calcium supplement will help anything leg cramps! That would also be dark green leafy veggies....probably juiced for increased volume. Watermelon and bananas have a lot of potassium which might be involved in a balance problem here (?). Please let us know what happens. Thanks, Sue - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:51:02 -0700 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS Hi Don, an imbalance of minerals can cause severe cramping, especially if potassium is high relative to magnesium. It's well known that animals grazing on high potassium/low magnesium grasses can develop the condition named "grass tetany". Potassium rich fertilizer are often used in high amounts in commercial fruit orchards because it increases the sweetness of the fruit, thus making the fruit more marketable and enjoyable to eat, however the down side of this heavy use of potassium fertilizer is that the fruits may then become minerally imbalanced, too high in potassium relative to magnesium + calcium. I wouldn't want to categorically state your cramps are due to this particular mineral imbalance but they may well be. Below are a few snippets from articles on "Grass tetany". "Plants have the ability to take up more potassium than they need. This is called luxury consumption. This can occur when there are high soil levels of potassium. High concentrations of potassium can also affect magnesium uptake by plants. This cannot only affect the plant physiology but can also cause metabolic imbalances in animals that consume mainly forages. The metabolic imbalance in animals is usually referred to as grass tetany or hypomagnesemia. If the ratio of magnesium to potassium (Mg:K) is less than 2:1, on a percent exchangeable basis, then magnesium is recommended". http://ohioline.osu.edu/anr-fact/0005.html "Grass tetany is a nutritional or metabolic disorder characterized by low blood magnesium, yet it is not just a simple magnesium deficiency. It is also called grass staggers, wheat pasture poisoning and hypomagnesemia. It primarily affects older cows nursing calves under 8 weeks of age, but may also occur in young or dry cows and growing calves. It happens most frequently when cattle are grazing lush, immature grass, but occasionally occurs when cattle are fed dry forages (winter tetany). High potassium and nitrogen content of grass seems to be associated with low blood magnesium. High nitrogen fertilization seems to reduce magnesium availability, especially on soils high in potassium or aluminum. Grass tetany occurs most frequently in the spring, often following a cool period (temperatures between 45 and 60°F) when grass is growing rapidly, but also is seen in the fall with new growth of cool season grass or wheat pastures. Low blood magnesium may be caused by 1) a diet low in magnesium, 2) a diet with nutrient imbalances that interfere with magnesium metabolism, or 3) higher levels of milk production. When blood magnesium drops too low, proper nerve impulse transmission fails, causing a tetanic disorder". http://www.ianr.unl.edu/pubs/animaldisease/g32.htm "Grass tetany (a form of hypomagnesmic tetany) occurs when there is a low level of Magnesium (Mg) in the cow's blood. Grass tetany, is caused by a low content or availability of Mg in pasture or hay. The availability of Mg is reduced if the forage is high in nitrogen (N) or potassium (K). This often occurs after heavy application of chemical fertilizers or manure. Farmers who practice "good" pasture and forage management may experience grass tetany more frequently than farmers who do not fertilize or use "improved" management methods". http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/3216.htm "The most consistent clinical sign of grass tetany is hypomagnesemia, and typical grass tetany is frequently described as hypomagnesemic tetany. Plant magnesium (Mg) levels of 0.2 to 0.25 percent tissue dry matter constitute a safe level to prevent tetany. Most investigators have accepted the level of .2 mg unless some antagonist like (Potassium) K is present at a high level. Many metabolites are involved in the expression of the syndrome that we call grass tetany. Limited dietary intake of Mg is the primary cause of tetany in the West. In Nevada and other western states, many forages are low in Mg. In fact, the tetany-prone areas may be mapped by the Mg content. Often these tetany-prone areas are also the same areas as crested wheatgrass seedings. In addition, plasma and forage calcium (Ca) may both be low with tetany. Calcium has been involved with tetany as indicated by the so-called "tetany ratio," K/(Ca + Mg), on an equivalent basis. If this ratio is greater than 2:2, the forage is classified as tetany-prone. Thus, a low content of either Ca or Mg or both could create a high ratio. Hypocalcemia, rather than hypomagnesemia, is probably the major problem associated with wheat pasture poisoning (Bohman et al., 1983; Hom, 1983; Littledike and Bohman, 1984). The availability of Ca or Mg may be modified by other dietary factors. High dietary intake of nitrogen (N), potassium (K), and (trans) aconitic acid have been associated with tetany even with a marginal intake of Mg and/or Ca. This has been demonstrated with both supplemental K (Newton et al., 1972) and with high K pastures. When cattle graze on immature cereal grains, the percent K in the forage is high (3 to 5 percent dry matter) while Ca and Mg are marginal. This also created a high tetany ratio, 2.2 to > 3.0. When pastures are fertilized with high levels of nitrogen, ruminants grazing the pastures usually have lower serum Mg (Sell and Fontenot, 1980). Forage N content was high when tetany occurred on cereal pastures (Bohman et al., 1983). Some have questioned the role of dietary N on mg availability". http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topics/Pastures/Species/Grasses/Animal_issues/Tetany.html In my own experience if I eat lots of melons, avocados and tomatoes and certain other fruits such as grapes, persimmons, jakfruit and other fruit which are high in potassium/low in magnesium + calcium then it doesn't take long for my my muscles to become stiff and inflexible. I notice this muscle cramping effect dramatically with yoga and also there is an acute exacerbation of the muscle spasm pain in my back (from a long standing back injury), so I must be ultra careful which fruits-veggies I eat and in what quantity. My guess is your diet is supplying you with too much potassium and not enough magnesium + calcium and other minerals. It may be worth experimenting by leaving the melons and avocados alone for a while and stick to bananas, apples, dates, figs and include a regular salad or two each day, using tomatoes, celery, lettuce, mushrooms, sweet peppers, carrot (adding other salad veggies you enjoy). Also it may be worth checking your water intake, if you're not drinking much it would be advisable to increase water intake. Please let us know how you get on. Regards, Greg Woolley Don Hunt wrote: > OUCH, I went "totally vegan" two days ago and last night I had the most > horrible leg cramps I have ever felt. Two days ago I had cantaloup for > breakfast, watermelon for lunch, and avacado for dinner, with some almonds > two hours later, the next day I ate fresh cabbage from the garden, a > beefsteak tomato from the produce store, a part of a walla walla sweet > onion, a few almonds, two plumbs, and a banana in the morning, today I ate a > banana so far. What else can I do to get rid of these vicious leg cramps? > > HELP > Don > > -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 01:03:12 -0700 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS Greg Woolley wrote: > It may be worth experimenting by leaving > the melons and avocados alone for a while and stick to bananas, apples, dates, > figs and include a regular salad or two each day, using tomatoes, celery, > lettuce, mushrooms, sweet peppers, carrot (adding other salad veggies you > enjoy). Above, I meant to say "using tomato" (singular), rather than "using tomatoes" (plural), for tomatoes are also high in potassium thus using them in moderation may be helpful. Greg - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:19:34 EDT From: Amstucker@aol.com Subject: Re: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS Don, For the past several years I have had to relieve my horrible leg and foot cramps with additional calcium/magnesium supplement. It's a terrible thing to suddenly wake up in the middle of the night with cramps so bad you are in agony and can hardly move your leg! I know all too well. But I have found that 1,000 mg calcium and 500 mg magnesium taken every day relieves them almost immediately. Have learned the hard way not to miss a day. Of course, I'm 74, and think that as one ages, the nutrients are not as easily absorbed as once they were. Ah, to be young again! Marian - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:20:53 -0400 From: Bob Avery Subject: Re: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS Don, >What else can I do to get rid of these vicious leg cramps? More sodium, perhaps -- spinach, chard, celery, seaweed........ I've noticed that melons tend to cause me to cramp a little in the morning too. Greg, Why do you think grass tetany and leg cramps are the same thing? Bob Avery ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:01:32 -0700 From: Greg Woolley Subject: Re: [rawlife] HORRIBLE LEG CRAMPS Bob Avery wrote: > Don, > > >What else can I do to get rid of these vicious leg cramps? > > More sodium, perhaps -- spinach, chard, celery, seaweed........ > > I've noticed that melons tend to cause me to cramp a little in the > morning too. > > Greg, > > Why do you think grass tetany and leg cramps are the same thing? > Bob, I don't think they're the same in regards to severity, for grass tetany often develops into a severe life threatening condition, whilst cramping as with Don's recent experience is relatively more mild, however I do think there is a good chance they are both caused by the same basic reason, ie a mineral imbalance of high potassium combined with low magnesium + calcium. The similarities of symptoms of muscle cramping sound very similiar to the initial symptoms of grass tetany, ie muscle twitches and spasm. The foods Don described are high in potassium and low in magnesium + calcium, for example one small-medium cantaloupe has a whopping 1,700 mgs of potassium, whilst only 60 mgs of magsium and 60 mgs of calcium, very imbalanced. In my experience it doesn't take too many melons (actually even eating just one melon) for my muscles to significantly cramp up, often experiencing an audible grinding sensation in my neck when moving it, to me this clearly indicates a mineral imbalance. I've observed this same effect repeatedly throughout my 15 years of raw vegan diet having experimented with untold fruits and veggies alone and in combination, the same effect occures each time that I eat high potassium diet relative to magnesium and calcium. Also the alkaline/acid balance seems to be related to this too, if my body becomes too alkaline again my muscles cramp up and interestingly the same thing happens if my body becomes too acidic as well. Regards, Greg Woolley - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:01:41 -0700 From: "Barbara Cohen" Subject: [rawlife] School of Nutrition Hi All: Finally I have found out how to send in "plain text" - so if this is okay JR, may I get back on this group!!! Since I have been banned for soooo long!!! Well I have been reading the posts for ages without participating!! Some very interesting posts... albeit a bit loooong. I have a question, and that.. is... can anyone recommend a school to study Nutrition for a friends daughter?? She wants to study with an accredited school. There are soooo many flakes around that teach - how to choose. Somewhere here in California would be best. I am sure that she would relocate for however long it takes. I would appreciate any words of wisdom. Thanks to all for the valuable input over the past months!!! Barbara, Irvine, California. - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:37:04 -0400 From: Bob Avery Subject: Re: [rawlife] School of Nutrition Barbara, >Well I have been reading the posts for ages without participating!! Some >very interesting posts... albeit a bit loooong. I have a question, and >that.. is... can anyone recommend a school to study Nutrition for a friends >daughter?? She wants to study with an accredited school. There are soooo >many flakes around that teach - how to choose. Somewhere here in California >would be best. I am sure that she would relocate for however long it takes. >I would appreciate any words of wisdom. Thanks to all for the valuable input >over the past months!!! First you have to realize that accreditation is a bit of a farce. The whole system is set up to stifle dissent and legitimate alternatives. The closest you will come to Truth is correspondence courses offered by the Transformation Institute (http://www.transformationinst.com/) or the Academy of Natural Living (http://www.iig.com.au/anl/). I doubt these are accredited, but you should check. Clayton College of Natural Health (http://www.ccnh.edu/) is accredited, but it is a correspondence course, and the form of accreditation may limit where a personal may practice nutritional consulting. I suspect its teachings are a little watered down too. Then there are the various chiropractic and naturopathic institutions. One of the more highly regarded is Bastyr University (http://www.bastyr.edu/), but they are located in Seattle. Perhaps you could contact them or some of the others I mentioned and ask if there is a reasonable nutrition program anywhere in CA. Bear in mind that the established nutrition departments of major universities, like Berkeley, Tufts, and Harvard, teach a lot of nonsense when it comes to true nutrition. You will get lots of credentials, but little in the way of knowledge. Perhaps the Loma Linda School of Public Health (http://www.llu.edu/llu/sph/) would be one of the better ones, but I don't know that much about them. Bob Avery ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- rawlife - http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html ------------------------------ End of rawlife-digest V1 #1044 ****************************** --- ******************* END OF POST ****************************** RAWLIFE-DIGEST - faq at http://www.rawtimes.com/rawlife.html